New MoD guidelines? – Dartmoor Geocaching

New MoD guidelines?

clownpunchers — Sat, 15 Jun 2013 11:10:18 +0000

Has anyone else seen this on the forums?

http://forums.groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=312162

http://gagb.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=5124

From the way I read it, it looks like the MoD have now banned all geocaches from being placed on firing ranges and will be looking to remove all currently sited on them.

But surely they can’t do this on Dartmoor? For a start, they don’t actually own the land, and secondly the art of searching for plastic containers under rocks has been existing as Letterboxing for decades.

I know there was the issue of a young girl who tragically lost her life on Gt. Mis Tor ten years ago when searching for a letterbox, but I can’t recall any issues since they outlawed using ammo boxes as containers? Health and safety gone mad.

Reply To: New MoD guidelines?

Dartmoor Dave — Sat, 15 Jun 2013 11:57:04 +0000

Thanks Clownpunchers for bringing this to our attention. This would indeed be a major blow to geocaching on Dartmoor. No sooner do I manage to get agreement on caches in SSSIs when we are hit by another problem – or should I say challenge.

I will of course be taking this up with the DNPA first thing on Monday morning. They actively encourage geocaching and it will be interesting to see if they know anything about this. I will also contact the Duchy of Cornwall – as they own most of the land the MoD use.

However, the forum does say “At the moment they have not asked for any caches currently in place to be removed but this could change.”

As you correctly point out the MoD doesn’t own either Merrivale or Okehampton, but they do own Willsworthy. Clearly they cannot ban geocaches but allow letterboxes, so it will be interesting to hear what the letterboxing folk have to say about this. It would be a very good opportunity to work together with them.

I will use this forum to keep everybody up to date, so please watch this space.

Reply To: New MoD guidelines?

Jaughan — Sat, 15 Jun 2013 16:00:28 +0000

This is a concern and ought to be a concern to the tourism bodies. Plenty of us come to Dartmoor exclusively for caching or letterboxing- read the logs from cachers from away and you will see plenty of comments like”the rest of the series will have to wait until my next visit”.

In some ways Dartmoor ranges are unique. I cannot imagine trying to put a cache on the Sennybridge military range just next door to me. Indeed in areas such as Sennybridge or Castlemartin in Pembrokeshire, this is already policy. There is no public access at all.

As said, there is a considerable logistic nightmare to enforce this. About the only bit of the high Brecon Beacons that it has been possible to place a cache on is the eastern half of the Penyfan massif which is owned by the Honourable Artillery Company. They are a territorial unit but own property themselves. Is that military land? There is only low-intensity training there- basically yomping over it. And HAC and their agents have proved themselves to be pro activities such as geocaching by granting permission.

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finderman — Sat, 15 Jun 2013 18:12:11 +0000

This is terrible news. Dartmoor is one of Britain’s last proper wilderness’ . It’s bad enough that the north moors aren’t accessible every day. Now this!!? Maybe it’s a secret government plot to drive people off the moors and make it even more military. The government have done it before. Look at Tyneham in Dorset. There’s a village on Salisbury plain where they moved everyone out too. In the 70’s they moved a whole community off Diego Garcia island to turn it into a military base. There are no inhabitants on the north moor so if the govt/mod wanted to they could probably ban walkers completely. This could be the first step. Watch out letter boxers….

Reply To: New MoD guidelines?

reb10 — Sat, 15 Jun 2013 18:35:35 +0000

Its not just the north moor that could be affected, the military’s use of the Cramber tor area has recently been extended by another 40 years. Yes its only dry training but surely any security concerns would be the same.

Reply To: New MoD guidelines?

dartymoor — Sat, 15 Jun 2013 20:11:14 +0000

Interesting times, and all that. GAGB’s announcement, then quick resolution, make it unclear what they did on our behalf.

http://gagb.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=5124%22%5Dhere%5B%2Furl

To be fair, maybe there was nothing they could do.

By the letter of that, “not on MOD land”, if Groundspeak refuse caches on land not owned by MOD, merely leased “NON-EXCLUSIVELY” by them, they should be allowed. But GS traditionally have little spirit in negotiating on behalf of cachers in the UK.

I visited the letterboxing forums and saw no mention of this, so posted a thread highlighting it; http://www.dartmoorletterboxing.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=18053#18053

What next? I will be contacting DNPA and Groundspeak, and if I can get a contact for anyone at the MOD who may have influence, them too. And of course spreading the word.

Geocachers are an easy target (military metaphor!) as we can be shut down by one rule and groundspeak will accept it. My thoughts are that letterboxers (many of whom also cache) have far more power than cachers given their long history and decentralisation.

This is a stupid, blinkered and arrogant decision by the MOD that shows no sign of consultation, negotiation or consideration of the public they share land with. Risking a political view, I’m sick of my personal freedoms being removed over and over again in the name of anti-terrorism.

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Dartmoor Dave — Sat, 15 Jun 2013 20:50:12 +0000

I totally agree with what dartymoor says, particularly with regard to getting the letterboxing community on side. However, I have already spoken to somebody connected with the 100 Club and they were totally disinterested. They kept saying that they couldn’t help me (even though the person was also a geocacher) and didn’t seem to grasp the likely implication for letterboxing. They somehow thought that they would be immune. It will be interesting to see what the post on the letterboxing forum produces.

As for GAGB, they seem to pull the strings and the UK Groundspeak reviewers seem to jump. I don’t understand that relationship at all. Perhaps somebody could enlightened me – I guess there is a history somewhere?

Also, can somebody from OpenCaching please give a view on this.

Reply To: New MoD guidelines?

finderman — Sat, 15 Jun 2013 23:13:37 +0000

I’d love to know what the trigger was for this decision by the MOD. Why now? What is the reason. Is it possible there is someone inside the MOD that is anti Geocaching? If so Why?
It’s devastating news. You have so many great caches out on the moors Dave. I hope this can be overturned at least on Dartmoor as a special case. I can understand the idea of Tupperware outside a military base being a no no. Such as the controlled explosion outside HMS Drake this week, but that is not a concern on the moors. Geocaching doesn’t interfere with The military, nature or history.

Reply To: New MoD guidelines?

Anonymous — Sun, 16 Jun 2013 00:23:52 +0000

a. National Security – It is not appropriate to encourage people to leave or conceal (marked or unmarked) packages on any part of the MOD estate as it contradicts all security procedures and could lead to false security alerts.

I agree, do any of you not.

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clownpunchers — Sun, 16 Jun 2013 00:47:11 +0000

Reading it again, I think the new rule can only apply to land the MoD owns (i.e. one of the three Dartmoor Ranges) and that the geocaching powers that be have jumped the gun somewhat, as per usual. This is sometimes why I wish Dartmoor had it’s own body (such as letterboxing) as it such a special case, rather than abiding by the central rules which are not tailored to our situation (e.g. over a century of letterboxing, one of the last wildernesses in the UK, the land not belonging to the MoD and historical public access).

I think the issue has to be one of land ownership, really, which is fair enough. If the MoD does not want caches on it’s land (Willsworthy) then that has to be respected, although since the MoD is a public body and I can see no benefits in denying the sport, then I am strongly opposed to this.

It hurts the military’s public relations, and I know of many people who went on to serve in the forces only after a lot of time spent on the moors in younger years.

National security can apply to areas on or near bases I would agree, but to apply that to Dartmoor as a whole is absolutely ludicrous. There have been no incidences of “suspicious packages” on the moor, and neither will there ever be, they are well aware of letterboxing/geocaching.

As a side note, it is disappointing that geocaching and letterboxing communities on the moor are so distant from each other, as many people do both. When I meet people letterboxing on the moor they are the nicest people, and yet there seems to be some resentment by certain individuals of geocaching.